Chris Seeks Answers From Ed Miliband On Net Zero Costs, China Security & Supply
Sir Christopher Chope: I am conscious that I may be speaking to the next Prime Minister, so I shall be careful with my words.
Ed Miliband: Oh for goodness’ sake—most definitely not.
Q698 Sir Christopher Chope: Following from the answers that the Secretary of State gave—or perhaps did not give—to my colleague, Bradley Thomas, is there any inhibition, other than his own desire, to publishing the documents to which reference has been made?
Ed Miliband: I have given an answer. I do not have any more to add to the answers I gave.
Q699 Sir Christopher Chope: This is significant because, as the Secretary of State will recall, one of the United States’ concerns about Mr Mandelson’s appointment as our ambassador to the United States was his close relationship with China. There is a report in today’s paper that on a visit to China, Mandelson tried to get away from officials and have private meetings with members of the Chinese Communist party. Your failure to answer those questions directly will only give rise to the suspicions that the United States had in relation to Mr Mandelson; I hope they do not have those suspicions in relation to you.
Ed Miliband: The first clean energy agreement with China was made in 2015 and was not published. We are just following the previous practice. I suspect that you have a suspicion that there has been this big conspiracy, as you see it. I honestly think that it is really clutching at straws. I think I have given the answer.
Q700 Sir Christopher Chope: Okay. You have announced the most massive expansion of solar panel investment. Of the solar panels in used in this country, 95% are imported from China. By expanding solar panels, we are increasing our dependency upon China. The same is true in relation to wind turbine blades. In answer to questions on that in the Commons, you said that we were going to try and develop our own manufacturing capability in relation to turbine blades.
Ed Miliband: We have, with GE and Siemens.
Q701 Sir Christopher Chope: You have not said anything about how we are going to reduce our dependency on Chinese solar panels.
Ed Miliband: We inherited a situation where, as you are right to say, the solar industry across the world and indeed in the UK was dominated by China. Unlike the previous Government, we actually want to develop UK supply chains. That is why we have had the clean industry bonus, which is going to invest in, or lever in billions of pounds of private investment into, clean energy supply chains.
It is not true to say that we do not have any domestic manufacturing, because Siemens in Hull provides precisely that domestic manufacturing. Now we want more of it. One of the things I have done in my Department is to turn it from simply being an energy policy Department into being an energy and industrial policy Department, where we are working on developing those supply chains through our clean industry bonus, Great British Energy and the national wealth fund.
If you are asking me whether we also want to see investment in the solar industry domestically, the answer is yes. As Minister White pointed out in the House of Commons yesterday, when we left office, there were three leading solar manufacturing firms; when we came back into office in 2024 there were none. We also want to build up our domestic industry in other areas so that we diversify our supply chains.
Q702 Sir Christopher Chope: When you made your announcement yesterday about allowing all these extra solar farms, why did you not put in a requirement that they be built using British-built solar panels, rather than imported ones?
Ed Miliband: Because we don’t have the industry, because of the failure of your Government.
Q703 Sir Christopher Chope: If you announced that as industrial policy, wouldn’t that help generate the industry that is necessary? At the moment, a solar panel from China is about a fifth or a third of the price of one produced in our own country.
Ed Miliband: Sir Christopher, if we did that, you would say, “Why are you raising bills for everybody in this country?” We saw record solar installation last year. That is helping to cut bills for families across Britain. We are in a cost of living crisis, and it is incredibly important that we do everything we can to cut bills for families.
Rooftop solar is one of the most untapped resources in the UK. Only around one in 20 households have rooftop solar. We need a lot more of it. We also need to find ways of diversifying our supply chain, but it will take time, because of the inheritance we got from the last Government, who were completely asleep at the wheel. Whether it is in solar or, potentially more fruitfully, in other industries where there isn’t the same dominance, we need to develop that potential.
Q704 Sir Christopher Chope: But the costs of subsidising solar, wind and other renewables are being borne by the consumer. You have made a big thing of reducing bills by £150, but after that announcement was made, Ofgem said that bills would increase by £108 by 2031, just because of the need to invest more in transmission. Far from the bills coming down by £150, they will be coming down by next to nothing by 2030, compared with your pledge to the electorate prior to the last general election of reducing bills by £300.
Ed Miliband: Your question faces in so many different directions at once, Sir Christopher, that, with the greatest respect, it is hard to follow. You are simultaneously saying that the cost of solar is too low, that it is too high, that it will lower bills and that it will raise bills. You will have to clarify your question.
Q705 Sir Christopher Chope: What I am saying is that you are putting subsidies into solar, you are putting subsidies into wind—
Ed Miliband: You’re really wrong about that.
Q706 Sir Christopher Chope: You are increasing to almost total dependency on electricity, rather than utilising our gas resources. That brings me to my final question—
Ed Miliband: I just want to interject; you asked a question, so let me answer it, just for the sake of clarity. In the results of AR7, which we published yesterday, solar is at £65 per MWh. That is, by far, the cheapest technology available. If you are a fan of gas as a solution, that would be, by comparison, £147 per MWh to build and operate, so I want to say, with the greatest respect, that you are 100% dead wrong to say that we are somehow subsidising solar, because it is the cheapest power source at our disposal.
Q707 Sir Christopher Chope: The sun hasn’t shone for the past month, so that is by the by.
Ed Miliband: Even when the sun is not shining, Sir Christopher, solar works.
Sir Christopher Chope: I will not blame you for that.
Ed Miliband: There’s a headline: Miliband not blamed for sun not shining. That is extremely generous.
Chair: This is your last question, Sir Christopher.
Q708 Sir Christopher Chope: According to NESO statistics, by 2030, under the clean power plan, the United Kingdom’s gas import dependency will still be 70%. What is the Government’s gas supply plan out to 2050, where will the gas be coming from, and why are we not getting it from our own North sea?
Ed Miliband: The North sea will continue to play a role for decades to come, which is why we had our two manifesto commitments: not to issue new licences to explore new fields, which is environmental leadership, but to keep existing oil and gas fields open for their lifetime. It will therefore continue to play a role, but as you know, Sir Christopher, the North sea is a declining basin.
The NESO report on security of supply is very interesting, because it makes the case for why decarbonisation is essential for energy security. What it says is that in the so-called falling behind scenario—I suspect that you might want to fall behind the falling behind scenario—we are massively exposed to gas imports, not because of our policies but because the North sea is a declining basin. The real danger of a decision to move away from decarbonisation is not just what it means for climate change and bills, but what it means for energy security, because it will leave us very, very exposed and will impose massive costs, as we have to build all that new gas infrastructure. You’re shaking your head—
Sir Christopher Chope: I am.
Ed Miliband: But I strongly recommend that you read the report. It is a really compelling case for why decarbonisation for the UK in particular is absolutely essential for energy security.
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Later...
Q742 Sir Christopher Chope: Secretary of State, what is the Government’s view on hybrid heating systems? The Green Gas Taskforce has said that a system with a biomethane-fuelled boiler and a small heat pump is a cheaper alternative to stand-alone heat pumps for some 47% of homes, which have low energy efficiency. Do you agree, and what are you doing to embrace this new technology?
Ed Miliband: We do need to look at alternative technologies. If they are decarbonised technologies—obviously, biomethane has real potential—we should absolutely be looking at embracing them.
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Later...
Q745 Melanie Onn: Further to Sir Christopher’s point, I want to ask you about the statement that Dale Vince, the CEO of Ecotricity, made in January this year about heat pumps. He said: “Despite widespread claims that heat pumps cut energy bills, the independent Censuswide survey paints a very different picture. Eighty-five per cent of respondents said their heat pump did not reduce their bills, while nearly seven in ten reported that their heating costs had gone up.” Why would we keep trying to encourage people to take up heat pumps if that is the effect that they will have on the costs that they face?
Ed Miliband: Dale has very strong views, which I do not agree with, on heat pumps. There are two things I would say. First, the truth is that even the people who advocate hydrogen in home heating recognise that heat pumps are going to have a very significant role in decarbonisation. We could stay on gas boilers forever, but we are not going to decarbonise our country if we do that, and nor are we going to have energy security. Given that, we have to cut the cost of electricity so that the electricity-to-gas ratio is such that the greater efficiency of heat pumps means that people can have lower bills. I have not referred to this so far, but that is why the Chancellor did not just take £150 of costs off bills, but focused that on cutting the cost of electricity, because the renewables obligation was levied on electricity. What she did was change that ratio quite significantly.
Secondly, look, there are different surveys around, and our data suggests something different from what that data suggests. All the evidence I have seen says that on the right tariff, people can actually have lower running costs of heat pumps compared with boilers. That is part of our warm homes agency, so that people have the right advice in order to do that.
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